Mark Matthews on choice, culture, and narrative identity
Mark Matthews completed his BA in psychology at The Ohio State University-Mansfield, his MA in experimental psychology at the University of Dayton, and he is now in the social psychology program PhD program at The Ohio State University. Mark is interested in pursuing questions related to (a) one’s openness to counter-attitudinal information and truth-seeking, (b) the relation, or lack thereof, between one’s attitudes and their identity and self-worth, and (c) attitudinal development more broadly. Currently, Mark is examining how unconditional self-acceptance, a belief that one has an inherent sense of worth and value no matter what, influences openness to counter-attitudinal information.
Mark on the web: Lab Page | Coaching Site
By Dylan Horner, Minot State University. December 16, 2024.
ISSEP: How did you first become aware of and interested in existentialism and the science of existential psychology?
Mark Matthews: In a way, I got dropped into existential psychology at a young age. Like many people who become obsessed with meaning, I went through a lot of adversity. I lost my mom at nine years old, and I also watched as people I knew became stuck with the belief that there were parts of themselves that could not change. They thought it was their job to learn to live with these issues and cope. For people in my small-town community in Ohio, the pathway out was religion. From an essentialist religious perspective, people tend to think that they are corrupt, bad, evil, or wrong, but that they can be redeemed for this inherent badness. So, as a little kid, I became obsessed with questions like, “Why are we inherently bad? Were my parents inherently bad? Does that mean I am inherently bad?” But I thought that there must be parts of our life that we can choose, and that we can decide what our experiences mean.
Before I graduated high school, I also lost my dad. So, at that time, the world seemed to be full of pain, and I was trying to figure out what I could do with my life. Nobody in my family had ever been to college, and so I had no role models for that, but one of my teachers showed me that there was a regional campus for Ohio State. I decided to go and went in completely open—there just happened to be a psychology course, and that’s what got it all started.
Around the same time, I read a few books that I found fascinating. The first was Jonathan Haidt’s The Happiness Hypothesis (2006), which takes ancient wisdom and infuses that with science to offer a prescription for how one can live a happy and good life. The second was The Stranger (1946) by Albert Camus, which really showed me the trade-off between being fully in charge of one’s own life and letting people tell someone who they are and who they should be. The third was a book by Jack Bauer called The Transformative Self (2021), in which he describes how each of us has a narrative identity—a core part of our personality that can help us feel good about ourselves. And so, I became fascinated with understanding the self, how we secure a sense of self-worth, and how we can use narratives to choose and change who we are.
ISSEP: You have been exploring these topics and doing some interesting work in existential psychology lately. Can you tell us more about this work?
Mark Matthews: In psychology, we often have to constrain what information we are looking for so that we can codify that into a research paper. I think that can be really good, and it helps us incrementally build knowledge. However, at the same time, we miss so much information. For me, my goal is full immersion in people’s lives—not just the words they say, and not just their answers to specific questions, but full immersion. So, I created a project to spend a week in all 50 states. I call it The American Discovery Tour.
With this project, I am trying to identify what type of narrative themes are present in our culture—how are people trying to make sense of who they are in America, both good and bad? I am interested in not only understanding the things that are helping people flourish and create life stories that give them a sense of meaning and purpose, but also understanding the problems people face in that process.
My best friend is on this tour with me, and in each state, we try to stay in several locations with different people local to the area. Again, the goal is full immersion in people’s lives. We’ve met people’s friend groups, we’ve joined a 50-year-old’s birthday party, we’ve gone to someone’s daughter’s choir concert—we’ve done everything you can imagine, and we have stayed with people from all kinds of different backgrounds.
One of the more interesting findings so far is that people are not independent of their places, the actual setting and where they live. For example, after spending some time with people who live on or near reservations and in indigenous cultures, it has surprised me how there is not a clean break between them and the landscape. For instance, to some people, a mountain where they live is part of who they are in their identity. And so, to fully understand people, it may require more than simply asking people who they are—we might need to experience the things important to them. In this case, I asked myself the question, “Do I need to experience the mountain to better understand them?”
Another interesting finding is that people I have met seem to either want to break away from the idea of “being American” or want to align more with that identity, but in either case, people seem to have a hard time defining what “American” actually means. American culture often is focused on making your own story the spotlight—in other words, the goal is to have a story that’s unique from everybody else. The problem with that focus is that you then must take responsibility for building your story, and that can be an unbelievably difficult task.
But more broadly, the question that I see people struggle with is, “How do I make sense of who I am?” In a way, they are attempting to understand their personal narrative or life story—an explanation for who they are and what they should do. I think one thing people can do, especially if they feel lost or don’t have a clear or coherent life story, is to pick a goal and focus working toward that goal. Ultimately, the “Who am I?” question is really asking, “What goals are for me?” I think focusing on a noble goal—one that helps you, helps others, and helps the world—is the best way forward. Instead of focusing on all the things that are happening to you and trying to make sense of them all, I think it is important to recognize that all these things are happening but picking one thing that matters to you.
ISSEP: Fascinating! Do you see these ideas in things like film, art, or music?
Mark Matthews: Yes! One thing I’ve learned from this work and from existential psychology is that we only get to live this life one time—so, why not make the choice to face that which you’re most afraid of and pave the path for the next person? These ideas really stood out to me in the movie Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3. This will be a bit of a spoiler if you haven’t seen it, but in the film, we learn more about the story of Rocket. We trace his origin, and we discover that he was created—he was a racoon that was changed genetically and surgically, and his creator was going to exterminate him and his friends. Rocket defends his friends and stands up to his creator, but for years would not confront the creator out of fear. But by the end of the film, we see Rocket in battle against his former creator. But, he chooses to spare him. It’s a really powerful moment.
I think existentialism puts the burden of being on the person. You can’t just reciprocate the bad that’s been done to you, or the good that’s been done to you—you have to integrate what’s been done to you with your understanding of yourself and make a choice on how to act. And that’s what Rocket did. I thought that was really cool.
ISSEP: In what ways can your research help us make sense of important human experiences?
Mark Matthews: I think trying to answer questions like “Who am I?” and “What am I supposed to do?” can be difficult to ask oneself and often require a strong and secure base from which one can explore.
This reminds me of an interview with Kobe Bryant, who is regarded as one of the best basketball players of all time. In the interview, he is asked to share a bit about his life and what it was like growing up. His dad was a basketball player too, and Kobe recalls a really pivotal experience he had with his dad. One summer at about 11 years old, Kobe didn’t score a single point. He remembers crying to his dad when his dad hugged him and said, “Whether you score zero or score 60, I’m going to love you no matter what.” Kobe said that support helped him feel secure and gave him all the confidence in the world to practice and work toward his basketball goals.
In places like America, there is this idea that you can go build whatever life you want, and so people feel that is what is expected of them. But they don’t feel a sense of safety or security to venture out and create that personal narrative or life story. And I think many people feel that if they are fully accepted and loved, then they will just skate by and won’t try to do more. But I think being able to internalize a sense of inherent worth and value can help people create an empowering identity.
ISSEP: What do you think are some of the remaining issues for this research topic, and what do you see as the most important next steps toward better understanding these experiences?
Mark Matthews: One of the most important questions is how to fulfill feelings of autonomy and belongingness without creating a zero-sum relationship between the two. People sometimes feel like they need to increase their uniqueness at the cost of feeling connected to others. Likewise, if they want that feeling of secure attachment and belonging, then they often think that they need to sacrifice their uniqueness and get rid of that cultural call to individualism. So, I think an important issue is exploring that relationship between autonomy and belonging and helping people meet both of those needs without sacrificing one or the other.
ISSEP: You’ve attended, and presented research at, our Existential Psychology Pre-Conferences. How has your experience been with that?
Mark Matthews: I always get excited for the pre-conference! It is always very fun and full of new ideas. But what I like most is the community—my favorite thing is the discussions we have, and being able to talk at length with researchers about topics like meaning and authenticity has been very stimulating.
“I always get excited for the preconference! ... what I like most is the community.”
ISSEP: Do you have any advice for future students who might want to follow in your footsteps and contribute in innovative ways to the science of existential psychology?
Mark Matthews: I would say to not constrain what you’re interested in. You can constrain what you’re working on, that’s not a bad idea—but don’t constrain what you’re interested in. If you want longevity in this field, you have to remember that it’s about being in love with learning. So, just allow yourself to love learning and don’t constrict what you’re interested in. And I think there can be a lot of pressure on students, but one thing I would say is to just connect with the beauty of what we’re doing in the field and on this great adventure of trying to learn about people.
ISSEP: Can you tell us a little about yourself outside the work/research context?
Mark Matthews: I love to watch movies, getting to connect with new people, and having adventures. I also love music, particularly freestyle rap. I’ve been in love with it since I was a kid. I was deep into the hip hop culture. I am also obsessed with coffee. I only drink one a day, but I like trying different coffee, going to coffee shops, and learning about where it came from.
I also have my own coaching business where I do certified high performance coaching, and I walk people through a process based on work in positive and performance psychology. I have a small clientele list, and they’re just people who are trying to grow a business or trying to have a higher quality of life. It’s so rewarding to sit down and share psychology with people where they are in their everyday lives. One of my long-term goals is to bridge the coaching world with the psychology world. Right now, there are a lot of people in the coaching world with little experience in psychology, so I am trying to elevate that.
ISSEP: A lot of us like to listen to music while working/studying, and in general. What are you listening to lately, and is it different depending on what you are doing?
Mark Matthews: It’s an interesting question! When I work, it’s usually not to music. I have found benefits from going the neuroscience route, listening to more focused and simple brainwaves stuff. But when I’m not working, I listen to whatever album I’m obsessed with at the time. For example, I love the rapper NF (Nathan Feuerstein), and he has two songs that I can really connect to. One song is called “How Could You Leave Us,” and it is all about him being angry at his mom about her passing. His mom dealt with drug addiction and passed away from an overdose, so it’s a very emotional song. I connect to that because there’s a part of me that realizes I only saw the good of my mom. Before I was born, my mom was an alcoholic and drug addict with my dad, but she gave the last years of her life to support me—and I’m very thankful she did. The other song called “Mama” is a transformation. It’s all about seeing his mom at Heaven’s gates, and he’s hoping she’s happy and that all the pain has gone away. And when I listen to that song and look at everything I do, I realize that my life story—my main goal—is to save my parents.